Comments on: Cellared in Canada: changes in the stores and labels, but no help for Ontario growers http://winecase.ca/2009/10/12/cellared-in-canada-labels-and-shelves-not-growers/ Exploring the wine world in all its phenolic splendor, from the workings of the industry to tasting notes Wed, 09 May 2012 02:38:54 +0000 hourly 1 By: Conversations with winemakers on Twitter http://winecase.ca/2009/10/12/cellared-in-canada-labels-and-shelves-not-growers/comment-page-1/#comment-592 Conversations with winemakers on Twitter Thu, 31 Dec 2009 07:16:44 +0000 http://winecase.wordpress.com/?p=641#comment-592 [...] debated the virtues and vices of wine monopolies, the importance (or lack thereof) of the whole Cellared in Canada debate and much more with the likes of Shea Coulson, Anthony Gismondi, Bill Zacharkiw, Rod [...] [...] debated the virtues and vices of wine monopolies, the importance (or lack thereof) of the whole Cellared in Canada debate and much more with the likes of Shea Coulson, Anthony Gismondi, Bill Zacharkiw, Rod [...]

]]> By: winecase http://winecase.ca/2009/10/12/cellared-in-canada-labels-and-shelves-not-growers/comment-page-1/#comment-394 winecase Tue, 13 Oct 2009 03:13:42 +0000 http://winecase.wordpress.com/?p=641#comment-394 The ownership of vineyards in both provinces is an important question. It explains a lot about the dynamics that have built up in Ontario, in particular. The system clearly needs to change, one way or the other. If the bickering doesn't stop, I think decisions will be made at another level. Decisions that will make no one happy. When I was in Long Island, last May, for a gathering of bloggers called Tastecamp, one of the producers we met told us how much of a transition it was to have gone from being a grower to being a winemaker. In one case, he explained, you're looking to produce as much as you can, and in the second, you're looking to produce the best wine you can. It's difficult to take that step if you don't see your grapes from the vine to the bottle. I'm wondering if part of the issue doesn't have to do with that type of dynamics. The ownership of vineyards in both provinces is an important question. It explains a lot about the dynamics that have built up in Ontario, in particular.

The system clearly needs to change, one way or the other. If the bickering doesn’t stop, I think decisions will be made at another level. Decisions that will make no one happy.

When I was in Long Island, last May, for a gathering of bloggers called Tastecamp, one of the producers we met told us how much of a transition it was to have gone from being a grower to being a winemaker. In one case, he explained, you’re looking to produce as much as you can, and in the second, you’re looking to produce the best wine you can. It’s difficult to take that step if you don’t see your grapes from the vine to the bottle. I’m wondering if part of the issue doesn’t have to do with that type of dynamics.

]]> By: Anthony Gismondi http://winecase.ca/2009/10/12/cellared-in-canada-labels-and-shelves-not-growers/comment-page-1/#comment-395 Anthony Gismondi Tue, 13 Oct 2009 00:54:15 +0000 http://winecase.wordpress.com/?p=641#comment-395 Maybe we should form a Canadian Wine Writers Marketing Board. I wouldn't mind some guaranteed income. Seriously, the day BC abolished the grape marketing board, grape quality increased over night. Wine quality jumped exponentially and the price paid for those grapes is much higher than anyone could have imagined. Regulating the market price is the single biggest reason Ontario grape growers and ultimately wineries forced to buy the stuff are facing the challenges they are. There is no incentive to get better. But as I said earlier this has nothing to do with truth in labeling. Let's not get distracted. It might be useful to discuss words that should not appear on a bottle of wine that contains foreign and domestic juice processed in Canada. I would not vote for any words that mislead the consumer or draw upon label terms reserved for estate bottle wines such as Cellared or even Made in Canada. Product of Canada should be out to. I would be happy with International Wine Blend processed at a Canadian winery. Maybe we should form a Canadian Wine Writers Marketing Board. I wouldn’t mind some guaranteed income. Seriously, the day BC abolished the grape marketing board, grape quality increased over night. Wine quality jumped exponentially and the price paid for those grapes is much higher than anyone could have imagined. Regulating the market price is the single biggest reason Ontario grape growers and ultimately wineries forced to buy the stuff are facing the challenges they are. There is no incentive to get better. But as I said earlier this has nothing to do with truth in labeling. Let’s not get distracted. It might be useful to discuss words that should not appear on a bottle of wine that contains foreign and domestic juice processed in Canada. I would not vote for any words that mislead the consumer or draw upon label terms reserved for estate bottle wines such as Cellared or even Made in Canada. Product of Canada should be out to. I would be happy with International Wine Blend processed at a Canadian winery.

]]> By: Rick VanSickle http://winecase.ca/2009/10/12/cellared-in-canada-labels-and-shelves-not-growers/comment-page-1/#comment-396 Rick VanSickle Tue, 13 Oct 2009 00:25:26 +0000 http://winecase.wordpress.com/?p=641#comment-396 Anthony is correct. Labelling is only one small part of the problem. Once CIC (or whatever it will be called in the future) is refined, relabelled and the intense media focus no longer pointed its way attention will turn to the real crisis in the industry — at least in Ontario. The bickering between grape growers and the wine council and where the ridiculous notion of a wine marketing board fits into the equation. As it stands, grape growers (remember, 70% of vineyards in Ontario are owned by growers, 30% by wineries — the opposite of which is true in B.C.) want to be rewarded for growing grapes at the low end of the quality scale because they aren't adequately paid at the high end unless you have a special deal with a winery. As a bargaining unit, they are comfortable at the low end of the Brix scale because it pays the best according to antiquated conditions set out by an antiquated marketing board. All that and a government-run monopoly liquor board that excludes most Ontario wineries from its stores, doesn't react well to criticism, and doesn't really get what all the fuss over CIC is all about. Political will, public pressure, new leadership at the very organizations that have thrown up their hands is surrender are the only basis of hope for all of us who love this industry and want to see it move forward. Anthony is correct. Labelling is only one small part of the problem. Once CIC (or whatever it will be called in the future) is refined, relabelled and the intense media focus no longer pointed its way attention will turn to the real crisis in the industry — at least in Ontario. The bickering between grape growers and the wine council and where the ridiculous notion of a wine marketing board fits into the equation. As it stands, grape growers (remember, 70% of vineyards in Ontario are owned by growers, 30% by wineries — the opposite of which is true in B.C.) want to be rewarded for growing grapes at the low end of the quality scale because they aren’t adequately paid at the high end unless you have a special deal with a winery. As a bargaining unit, they are comfortable at the low end of the Brix scale because it pays the best according to antiquated conditions set out by an antiquated marketing board. All that and a government-run monopoly liquor board that excludes most Ontario wineries from its stores, doesn’t react well to criticism, and doesn’t really get what all the fuss over CIC is all about. Political will, public pressure, new leadership at the very organizations that have thrown up their hands is surrender are the only basis of hope for all of us who love this industry and want to see it move forward.

]]> By: winecase http://winecase.ca/2009/10/12/cellared-in-canada-labels-and-shelves-not-growers/comment-page-1/#comment-397 winecase Mon, 12 Oct 2009 23:36:28 +0000 http://winecase.wordpress.com/?p=641#comment-397 Thanks for the post-like comment. I realize the labelling and the grape-buying are two different issues, but they both come into play in Cellared in Canada wines. As your own take on Bruce Walker's quote suggests, the fact that Vincor does everything from Le Clos Jordanne's single vineyards to the J-T Proprietors Series does nothing to simplify either issue. As for Wild Horse Canyon, I am surprised - or I should probably say appalled - to find out that the label is used for VQA as well. Difficult to see such things from the other end of the country, so thanks for that. If so, they are just as guilty about blurring the distinction between the two categories. I'll have to follow up on that. *sigh* You're absolutely right that there should be much, much higher standards in labelling. The ongoing process launched in BC and Ontario should be followed closely, to make sure that it doesn't lead to a different situation that would be just as confusing. Thanks for the post-like comment. I realize the labelling and the grape-buying are two different issues, but they both come into play in Cellared in Canada wines. As your own take on Bruce Walker’s quote suggests, the fact that Vincor does everything from Le Clos Jordanne’s single vineyards to the J-T Proprietors Series does nothing to simplify either issue.
As for Wild Horse Canyon, I am surprised – or I should probably say appalled – to find out that the label is used for VQA as well. Difficult to see such things from the other end of the country, so thanks for that. If so, they are just as guilty about blurring the distinction between the two categories. I’ll have to follow up on that. *sigh*
You’re absolutely right that there should be much, much higher standards in labelling. The ongoing process launched in BC and Ontario should be followed closely, to make sure that it doesn’t lead to a different situation that would be just as confusing.

]]> By: Anthony Gismondi http://winecase.ca/2009/10/12/cellared-in-canada-labels-and-shelves-not-growers/comment-page-1/#comment-398 Anthony Gismondi Mon, 12 Oct 2009 18:14:52 +0000 http://winecase.wordpress.com/?p=641#comment-398 Excellent post, but try not to be distracted by any discussions about Ontario grape growers and Vincor's pricing models. None of that has anything to do with the issue of labelling. Ontario VQA producers have developed a sophisticated place name or appellation system that clearly benefits producers residing within its boundaries and following the rules governing its use on labels. Guess who that includes: all Vincor VQA properties. Now remember the earlier quote: “We buy the most grapes in Ontario, and we are the largest producer of VQA wines in Ontario. We work on a long-term basis with 85 growers, and we buy a quarter of the total Ontario crop: two thirds for CiC, and one third for VQA.” Doesn’t that mean they have the most to gain by confusing consumers with labels and words that make one think the product is the same as the Canadian grown and produced wine we have been reviewing for decades? Wine has been the number one leader in labelling its source, appellation and or origin placing the important and mostly regulated information on the front label for decades. Long before the 100-mile diet, serious wine producers have discussed terroir and place as being at the centre of their work. Anyone in the wine business who tries to debase this notion, or take advantage of it should be subject to fines and penalties. Words like Canada and appellation should be more highly protected than VQA and they should apply to every producer with a license to make wine in the country. As for Artisan Wines and Estates and Ms. Pikes statement “We agree that more transparency in labelling would be incredibly beneficial, as the confusion surrounding the “Cellared in Canada” issue hurts all of us in the local wine industry!” Mark Anthony Brands gets no kudos from this writer for truthfully creating a fake “West Coast” appellation on its label. I see that as no better than using the term Cellared in Canada. Every one of Mark Anthony import suppliers is deeply committed to the notion of appellation, as is Mission Hill, so why debase the word. By the way the Wild Horse Canyon brand released a VQA chardonnay label this year under the same look-a-like label, so, “Wild Horse Canyon wines have the advantage of avoiding confusion created in other brands” is not a statement that holds any weight with me. Truth in labelling should be closely followed ethics and standards that are becoming of an estate wine producer, otherwise why should we believe anything you say about any of your wines. Excellent post, but try not to be distracted by any discussions about Ontario grape growers and Vincor’s pricing models. None of that has anything to do with the issue of labelling.
Ontario VQA producers have developed a sophisticated place name or appellation system that clearly benefits producers residing within its boundaries and following the rules governing its use on labels. Guess who that includes: all Vincor VQA properties. Now remember the earlier quote: “We buy the most grapes in Ontario, and we are the largest producer of VQA wines in Ontario. We work on a long-term basis with 85 growers, and we buy a quarter of the total Ontario crop: two thirds for CiC, and one third for VQA.” Doesn’t that mean they have the most to gain by confusing consumers with labels and words that make one think the product is the same as the Canadian grown and produced wine we have been reviewing for decades?
Wine has been the number one leader in labelling its source, appellation and or origin placing the important and mostly regulated information on the front label for decades. Long before the 100-mile diet, serious wine producers have discussed terroir and place as being at the centre of their work. Anyone in the wine business who tries to debase this notion, or take advantage of it should be subject to fines and penalties. Words like Canada and appellation should be more highly protected than VQA and they should apply to every producer with a license to make wine in the country.
As for Artisan Wines and Estates and Ms. Pikes statement “We agree that more transparency in labelling would be incredibly beneficial, as the confusion surrounding the “Cellared in Canada” issue hurts all of us in the local wine industry!” Mark Anthony Brands gets no kudos from this writer for truthfully creating a fake “West Coast” appellation on its label. I see that as no better than using the term Cellared in Canada. Every one of Mark Anthony import suppliers is deeply committed to the notion of appellation, as is Mission Hill, so why debase the word.
By the way the Wild Horse Canyon brand released a VQA chardonnay label this year under the same look-a-like label, so, “Wild Horse Canyon wines have the advantage of avoiding confusion created in other brands” is not a statement that holds any weight with me.
Truth in labelling should be closely followed ethics and standards that are becoming of an estate wine producer, otherwise why should we believe anything you say about any of your wines.

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